Eddie Jones on rugby’s ‘arrogance’, ‘cheap’ Suaalii, ‘sad’ Brumbies and what must change

Exclusive: Eddie Jones might have told reporters in Sydney that he has “no wounds” from his ugly homecoming in 2023, but away from the cameras, the veteran Australian coach cuts a different figure from the one many have seen over the past two years.

Indeed, for the first time, the 65-year-old expressed disappointment and regret with how his ill-fated return to the Wallabies played out.

In a sit-down interview during Jones’ recent return to his home state with an under-23s Japanese side, the maligned coaching figure sat down with The Roar and spoke through the major issues in Australian rugby.

Jones insisted rugby needed to change, saying it had become a “welfare sport” and encouraged Rugby Australia to “finish” the change former chairman Hamish McLennan had attempted to usher through.

Jones thought the Wallabies were a genuine chance of beating the Lions, saying Joseph-Aukuso Suaalii was “cheap” and that Will Skelton was the equivalent of two players.

He also thought Skelton was the one person who could help get the best out of Taniela Tupou, whose future in Australian rugby is on shaky ground.

Here is The Roar’s Q&A with Jones, which took place late last month over a coffee in Double Bay.

Jones: So what’s the big news in rugby at the moment?

The Roar: Probably Rugby Australia’s $36.8 million deficit after absorbing the costs of the Brumbies, Rebels and Waratahs. But they’ll obviously be able to repay that through the Lions, but it’s a short-term fix.

Jones: They’re relying on an unnatural event to prop up what is a bankrupt sport. It’s a welfare sport. It needs to change, mate.

The Roar: Obviously the Rebels’ demise wasn’t great from a national footprint, but probably helps from a Wallabies perspective?

Jones: Without a doubt, mate. You just see the level of Super Rugby teams. It’s gone up. New South Wales now have got a bigger squad. They should always have a big squad. They’ve got a bigger squad. Queensland have got some players back. They’ve always got plenty of talent. And the Brumbies, I think the saddest thing about the Brumbies is their demise, isn’t it? They don’t have control of themselves.

The Roar: They don’t have control of themselves and they don’t get enough people through the gates, do they?

Jones: I reckon you’ve got to go back to basics. Two teams. How can you make the Brumbies successful? Well, they were successful when they played good rugby, right? People wanted to come. But if you had the Canberra Raiders who’ve got maybe 8,000, Brumbies have maybe got 7,000, say, or 6,000 loyal supporters, you’ve got to play unbelievable rugby and engage the community to win that race. And they can do that.

The Roar: I can’t imagine that two rolling maul tries in five minutes (against the Reds) is going to win back the fans necessarily?

Jones: Yeah, that’s what I mean, mate. You’ve got to find a new way of doing it.

The Roar: You recently told Ben Herring on the Coaching Culture podcast that you didn’t enjoy coaching in the mid-2000s because of the direction the game was going and that it was completely different from what you grew up with at Randwick by Coogee Beach. Is that the philosophy guiding your coaching and tactics currently?

Jones: Yeah, 100 per cent.

The Roar: Is that because you’re in the twilight of your coaching career?

Jones: I think so, mate. You always want to win, right? But there comes a time when you’ve got to stand for something too, what you really believe in. I’ve coached teams where I’ve enjoyed winning, but I haven’t enjoyed the rugby. I’m rooted in Randwick, I like that style of play. I believe rugby can be played like that, but the risk is so high that at the highest level it’s difficult. Because to play that sort of rugby, you need to have massive cohesion, and to have cohesion, you need time, right? You see Ireland play what I’d call a slow, organised version of Australian rugby, right? But they play it bloody well. But there’s 16 private schools in Dublin, and 80 per cent of Leinster’s academy comes from those 16 schools, and then 80 per cent of Ireland’s side comes from Leinster. So they’ve got this cohesive alignment in development and talent, and that’s why they can play like that.

And my argument always was – and that was the reason I came back – if you want Australia to be one or two in the world, we have to do things differently. Like, Suaalii will change the team. They’ll go from like a ninth-tenth team to a sixth or seventh team. But to go to that next step, which is what Australian rugby needs, you’ve got to change things. You’ve got to get that cohesive alignment, so there’s the coaching bit and the development bit.

The Roar: It didn’t quite work out with England in the final year or two, nor the Wallabies in 2023, so can it be done?

Jones: Yeah, 100 per cent. You can do it. You need things to go well, and you need to make sure you make good decisions. Coaching’s about making good decisions. And you need to make good decisions. How quickly you change things, who do you keep, who do you not keep, who can adapt, who can change, good assistant coaching.

One of the other big things about coaching is change, mate. And it’s one of the things that’s been really interesting. Like, you have a big coaching staff. So your alignment of a big coaching staff is so important that they’re all on the same page, but it can be done.

Like, whoever thought Ireland would be number one or two in the world? Now, that’s probably taken 10 years.

The Roar: With your selection at the 2023 World Cup, why was there so much change with the Wallabies?

Jones: I had ’27 in mind, mate. I was coaching 23 for 27. Because I really didn’t want to do 23. I’d just finished with England. And coming in at the time I did, I knew it was going to be hard, mate. But I was always thinking about, right, who do I need for 27? You know, five years to build the team up. And I looked at Super Rugby that year, and I looked at the players, and I felt, we can be OK.

But I’d rather bring some young guys who can be really good by 2027. In the end, it was a mistake, because they weren’t able to adapt quickly enough, and that’s my fault. The results are my fault. But having said that, I think strategically it was the right decision. And sometimes you’ve got to take some losses to get some wins further down the track.

The Roar: Did you move on some of the older generation because they were just stuck in their ways and hadn’t won enough as a group?

Jones: The players were pretty good, mate. I’ve got no problem with the players. I’m sure there are contrary views from the players. That’s OK. I thought the players were really good, mate. They gave me everything they had. And for some of them, it was difficult when you’ve got habits that stop you, and sometimes the change comes a bit slower than you’d hope it would.  

The Roar: Did your heart sink after the injuries to Will Skelton and Taniela Tupou?

Jones: Well, it’s the way rugby is, mate. We were always playing catch-up. One of the things we didn’t have for that World Cup, we didn’t have a pre-season. And one of the advantages you have in a World Cup is to have a proper pre-season, where you can get players fit, get them healthy, and do a lot of fundamental work on how you want to play, and we had none of that time. So, we were always playing catch-up. We were still trying to get fit at the start of the tournament, and in the end, both of their injuries were my fault, because we probably pushed them too hard. But having said that, there’s a counter-argument as well. Taniela had never been fitter. I watch him play now, and he had that World Cup, he got down 138kgs, and he was going to be a beast. His body didn’t handle it at the time.

The Roar: They showed that against Georgia, didn’t they?

Jones: Yeah. And Skelton’s like Suaalii. Skelton’s worth two players too, because of his demeanour with the players, his ability to get them together. Like, he’s a real captain.  

The Roar: Should he feature against the Lions?

Jones: Look, I would never try to select a team for another coach. Joe (Schmidt) would have to weigh all that up. I don’t know what condition he’s in at the moment. If he’s heavy, then it might be difficult. If he’s fit and he’s ready to go, then it’d be hard not to select him.

The Roar: Taniela Tupou hasn’t been offered a deal from Rugby Australia and is battling a bit. Would he benefit from going overseas and leaving Australia?

Jones: Mate, I just look at Will Stuart from England. He played probably 40 Tests for me. He was never quite there. And now 50 Tests, he’s one of their best players. Tight-head and number 10s, they’re a position where you have to go through a fair bit of pain to be good, generally speaking. And you start to get the return on those players when they’re 27, 28. Not when they’re 24, 25, unless they’re freaks. But most of them, it’s hard work, it’s hard yards. And with Taniela, there’s a sweet spot in his head. Like every player, there’s a sweet spot. You’ve got to find that. And it’d be a great loss for Australia. He can be freakish.

The Roar: So would you back him even though he’s struggled a little bit recently?

Jones: Yeah. And one of the guys who undoubtedly has the most influence is Will Skelton. In that World Cup squad in 2023, Will had him up every morning at 5 o’clock when they were training together. And then it’s not the coach telling him to do it, it’s another player, so he feels responsible.

The Roar: In 2005, you were devastated by being sacked by the Australian Rugby Union. This time around, in your private life, away from the cameras and stuff, were you as emotional with how things turned out?

Jones: I think deep down, yes. I probably was more pragmatic. When I came in, we had a clear philosophy. Everyone agreed. And it was written in the contract that if we didn’t get the private equity to change the structure of Australian rugby to allow it to have a chance of being one or two in the world, I probably wasn’t going to continue. Because I wasn’t interested in coming back to Australia just to coach Australia and fumbling around, trying to make ends meet with an unwieldy system. So, when that didn’t happen, I was really gutted post the World Cup that it wasn’t going to happen. And I remember we had two or three meetings in Paris post the World Cup, trying to get a solution, but it wasn’t going to happen. And then Hamish was getting pushed out, so it became a no-brainer, mate. But emotionally, yeah, disappointed. But you’ve got to move on, mate. The older you get, probably the better the easier it is.

The Roar: We’re all humans though, aren’t we?

Jones: Yeah. You go through a bit of a tough period, but that’s alright.

The Roar: It became increasingly clear around August and September that private equity wasn’t going to happen, is that when you looked at different options?

Jones: They (the Japan Rugby Football Union) asked me to give them a view of who should be coached, and that’s still the case. And I really didn’t have anything from Japan until post my resignation. That’s the story. Having said that, you’re always getting approaches. When you’re doing well, you’re getting approaches all the time. That’s the reality. And everyone knows that. People say, well, you shouldn’t do that. It’s human nature. And you can’t stop people from asking you about what you want to do. And so that was definitely going on, because at that time, the market share was pretty good.

The Roar: Do you know why it said job interview in the Zoom title?

Jones: I’m not too worried about it one way or the other.

The Roar: What kind of reform needs to take shape with Rugby Australia for the game to be successful long-term?

Jones: The objective is to get better talent, right? You’ve got to get better talent at that 13, 14, 15-year-old age group. So, the kids who are talented, who can play rugby league and rugby union, can Australian rugby keep another 20 per cent of that? Say you could get another 20 per cent and then keep those players through, give them opportunities to play rugby at a top level. They go to the 20s, but they need more centralised strength and conditioning. We played the 20s, and I still think Australia is below the rest of the world in that area. So, they need that centralised, almost like you need your national squad centralised, 20 or 30 players that are basically not run by the national union, but in conjunction with the state unions, they’re making sure they’ve got the best S&C, the best psychological, the best nutrition, all those sort of things that make a good player. They’re getting that, and then the age group underneath. But you’ve got to get that talent at the bottom level.

The Roar: Is signing Suaalii and Max Jorgensen, two young talents that the NRL had or wanted, a sign of that?

Jones: You see Suaalii, mate, his attitude to the game is just different from nearly every other player. He’s just at it the whole time. He’s communicating. He’s big. He’s physical. He’s going to help change that team, and you get one more of him, then you get a little bit of a tipping point, and the team will change.

The Roar: But isn’t it funny that Hamish copped a lot of slack about paying too much money to bring him over?

Jones: He was cheap, mate. I still go by the assertion he’s cheap. Just look at the publicity. Him himself, as one player, he’s cheap and his value on the field. And Hamish was badly treated over that. But again, that’s a time issue. He was just caught at a bad time.

The Roar: Where do you think he would be best suited?

Jones: I think probably 13.

The Roar: Which is unusual for a big NRL player?

Jones: But he’s young. That’s the other thing. He’s the youngest one to come across. What is he, 20, 21? So he’s very young. He’s played rugby until he was 16, had those few years of league to toughen him up. He’ll adapt to the game much quicker.

The Roar: From a Lions perspective, do you think Australia stand a chance?

Jones: I think Australia’s got a great chance. Watching the Six Nations, and I watched a fair bit of it closely, I think the standard Six Nations is high. But France were the standout team and then underneath that, you’ve got an England side still trying to find itself a bit. Ireland’s just coming off a little bit. Scotland have probably middled out. And then you’ve got Wales, who weren’t great at all. So if it’s a good time to play the Lions, it’s probably now.

The Roar: Have you got any final reflections on Aussie rugby?

Jones: I just hope they have the fortitude to go and do what Hamish started to do. And that’s to change how Australian rugby is run. Get back to making the national team absolutely a priority. Super Rugby, yes, is important. But they just filter it into the national team. And don’t be afraid to attack league.

The Roar: Why do you think Australian rugby has lost sight of the talent playing other codes, especially in the NRL?

Jones: I think rugby has got this (ego issue). I think it’s nearly everywhere that I’ve played and coached, apart from possibly South Africa. There’s this sort of inner arrogance that we know everything and we know better and our system’s OK and we don’t need to change. But it’s based on fairly old traditions. If you look at England, it’s based on the public schools. In Australia, whilst the clubs have been strong in Australia, public schools here still have a huge role. And in Japan, it’s all the prestigious universities, who run the game. So they think they can do it because they’ve done it from the start. And I think there’s a general reluctance from people in those areas of rugby to change. It’s bloody fascinating. Same in Japan. Three or four of the best universities are the top rugby universities. So they don’t think they have to change. Most of our kids, they’ll go back tomorrow. They’re just on the plane this morning. They’ll go back and they’ll have to train with 90 kids on the pitch. They’ll have curry and rice for breakfast. These are talented kids, but they won’t have any proprietary treatment. They’ll just be back to one of the kids. But you can’t tell the universities that’s wrong.

The Roar: Have you got a thought around the 10s at the moment?

Jones: I think at some stage, you need one of each of those guys to come through. As I said, I haven’t watched the games intensely. But from what I’ve seen, I think [Ben] Donaldson is coming on really well, and maybe that’s a Randwick bias, but I think he’s generally going in the right direction. And it’s on the back of a fair bit of pain and hurt, and then he’s playing consistent rugby at ten. So you’ve got to back him to come through. I’ll tell you who’s been good in Japan is [Bernard] Foley. This year he’s played really well.

The Roar: He was pretty angry that he didn’t get selected in 2023.

Jones: Yeah, so that might have been a mistake of mine. I’m not saying it was, but it could have been. Having said that, last year I don’t think he played well, but this year he’s played really well.

The Roar: Why?

Jones: Well, just physically he looks better this year. He looks much sharper. He’s making good decisions. He’s just got a nice order to his game. The good tens, you don’t see them until there’s that one moment where you’ve got to play the big moment. Like Dan Carter, he would just catch and pass, and then all of a sudden he goes bang and he goes through, and everyone says he has a brilliant game. He hasn’t really, he’s done one brilliant thing. It’s being low errors and then making a good decision

The Roar: You’re catching up with a few of your old coaches whilst you’re over here, including Scott Wisemantel. He was a handy coach.

Jones: Well, that’s one of the greatest losses for Australian rugby. He is the best Australian rugby coach. Good ideas, good energy, good bloke. Good methodology. And to lose him is sad. You can’t afford to lose guys like that.

The Roar: Well, he got told he had the Tahs job?

Jones: I know the story, but it wasn’t well managed.

The Roar: Moving back to Japan, what’s an achievable result in 27?

Jones: I’ve got no doubt we can make the quarterfinals, at least. I think the game’s really interesting at the moment. As much as I find part of it that I don’t like, the changing in the nations is really fascinating.

I’ve spoken about Ireland and what South Africa’s done. New Zealand’s possibly going through a period now where they’re going to have to adjust their talent pool because they’re undoubtedly getting pressure from the Warriors. If they put a second NRL team there? Super Rugby’s not what every kid aspires to play in. They could change a little bit. Australia we’ve spoken about. And then you’ve got Wales going through this exceptionally low period after a period of success. Can they recover? Scotland’s sort of bubbling along. Fiji looks like they could really break in. And they’re, again, a country that’s done really well. They’ve got their local Island team. They’ve got the national team. They’ve got players playing overseas. So they’re starting to get their talent right.

The Roar: What about France?

Jones: France is just an absolute stream of good players. You watch their under-20s play, their Top 14, every game’s televised live and basically every stadium’s full. They’ve got PROD2, right, which is televised live. Again, nearly every stadium’s chock-a-block. And the rugby’s just going through the roof. And it’s the sport of France. And they’ve got now a bigger gene pool to select from because they’ve been able to encourage black kids to play rugby. And now they’ve got this stream of players coming through.

The Roar: Are they playing the total rugby that you like?

Jones: What I like about them is they’ve got their own unique style. They’ve worked out how to play rugby that suits them. So they play a long kicking game, play off the back of that. But then when they get inside the 22, they go back to just offloading, no premeditated rucks. It’s really good rugby to watch.

The Roar: You said before that you want Japanese players. What does that mean for guys like Harry Hockings and so forth?

Jones: We want Japanese players. If they can play like Japanese players, they can play. And we need muscle. You just watch the game against Randwick, if we had a bit more muscle we’d have won the game easily. If guys are committed and they want to play for Japan, then there’s great opportunities for them.

The Roar: Someone like a Harry and an Isaac Lucas, have you spoken to them? Do you want them in your team?

Jones: I’ve spoken to them. It’s all about performance and attitude, mate. I know what a good Japan side looks like. I know how the balance between Japanese players and foreign players needs to be. And you’ve just got to find the right guys. Because you’ve got to have a certain amount of what should I say, adaptability, common sense, discernment to be a foreign player playing in Japan. It’s one of the most unique teams. You’ve actually got two distinctly different cultures in one team. Probably no other team has got that diversity. And under pressure, that gets sorted out. Come in here, right? People sit with who they look like. Again, it’s how the humans act.

The Roar: It’s been great to catch up Eddie, thanks.

Jones: No worries. Thanks for the coffee.